Curse

Amy Awien · Dec 18, 2007, 10:54 AM // 10:54

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Originally Posted by Wakka

lol

Yeah, that's about all you can.

You're twisting what I said by taking the extreme and deliberately misrepresenting my statements. Your behaviour only shows you are not interested in discussion but only in boosting you narcissistic ego. This forum is a lot better of without you.

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Like Washi said, go find some AoE in either NF or EotN and watch your team die.

It's foolish to stay in AoE - after you've failed to interrupt them - and to place your team so poorly.

Wakka · Dec 18, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04

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You're twisting what I said by taking the extreme and deliberately misrepresenting my statements. Your behaviour only shows you are not interested in discussion but only in boosting you narcissistic ego. This forum is a lot better of without you.

Mate im trying to discuss this but you keep lashing out at me lol just chill like.

As for the AoE, not all forms of AoE are visable and static. Im thinking more along the likes of Searing Flames (he was taking about Flame Djinns after all) which will really rip a low HP party apart. (Especially combined with ESurge from the Ethers).

As a matter of interest what HP does your tank have? lol ^^

Amy Awien · Dec 18, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

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Originally Posted by Wakka

Mate im trying to discuss this but you keep lashing out at me lol just chill like.

You were discussing, you were twisting and misrepresented what was said. That is not discussing.

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As for the AoE, not all forms of AoE are visable and static. Im thinking more along the likes of Searing Flames (he was taking about Flame Djinns after all) which will really rip a low HP party apart.

Good positioning helps, probably more then larger health buffers. Eventually damage will have to be healed, a larger pool doesn't change that, but fewer team-members struck by SF will.

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As a matter of interest what HP does your tank have? lol ^^

Around 480, somewhat less then my ranger has at, though that depends on the setup, highest health is not a priority.

Wakka · Dec 18, 2007, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Think you should log off a bit and clam down mate lol

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Eventually damage will have to be healed, a larger pool doesn't change that, but fewer team-members struck by SF will.

This is ture, however, it really really helps the monks by relieving a great lot of pressure. Especially through the burning caused by it. Gives the monks a greater room for error and overall reduces the amount of deaths within the party.

I would really hate to have a group with low HP DP'ed as it would be 50 times worse lol

Washi · Dec 18, 2007, 12:21 PM // 12:21

OK, Amy the question is do you have any vanquisher title? Did you clear some hm dungeons? If yes, did you do it with 450 hp?

Seriously, it is possible to play HM with that kind of HP but only if you have human paragon with TNTF and SY and a good human prot monk.

If you are just a ranger playin with your heroes, you have no chance to stay alive with that kind of hp, and it has nothing to do with positioning. The problem is that some mobs in HM really spike like hell and you are often left with 100 hp before your monks react. Now with that kind of health you WILL die sooner or later and with DP nothing will save you.

Ofcourse I'm not talking about guild parties with paragons and ursans and consumables cause then nothing really matters.

BTW it is not offtopic. Health level is a part of a build.

Amy Awien · Dec 18, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakka

This is ture, however, it really really helps the monks by relieving a great lot of pressure.

Yes, a larger buffer for the healers to pour HP into helps them working more efficiently and may give them a bit more time to react, particularly on spikes.

The point is that you have to find a balance between HP, attributes and other upgrades. Boosting health should not lead to compromising efficiency and increasing attributes should not compromise health. Health is not the only priority, there's plenty of room for Runes of Vitae and Survivor insignia's after you've made sure your build has optimal attributes.

Wakka · Dec 18, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Curious.

Do you run 2 Superior runes?

Aris the Accurate · Dec 18, 2007, 03:20 PM // 15:20

The point is optimal atributes can be achieved without the loss of hp. And for the record I wasn't being condecending. My point was that if you make a mistake and don't learn from it then the mistake serves no purpose. If you make a mistake and learn from it then you are better for it. How many people have to tell you that running less then 500hp is an unneccessary risk before you will listen?

iridescentfyre · Dec 18, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

I apologize in advance for interrupting your argument.

There isn't really a good reason not to run all Minors no matter what you're doing. If you really want to, throw in a Major somewhere if you must... but its unnecessary. You should have 560-600hp (depending on Insignia choice) for PvP, and it sure doesn't hurt in PvE either. Its not "too much health," its what you need in order to survive.

By the way, did you know that if you have over 500hp, Deep Wound takes away less than 20% of your health? Its troo..

Amy Awien · Dec 18, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

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Originally Posted by Aris the Accurate

The point is optimal atributes can be achieved without the loss of hp.

Any rune that increases an attribute ultimately is a loss of HP. The question is how to balance hp vs attributes in a way that suits your build and playing style best.

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And for the record I wasn't being condecending. My point was that if you make a mistake and don't learn from it then the mistake serves no purpose.

That's condescending. There is no mistake, there's a difference in opinion, in playing style and thus in game experiences. You become condescending by denying that there's difference in opinion and in stead telling me I should 'learn from my mistakes', while in fact, you are the one who's apparently unable to learn.

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If you make a mistake and learn from it then you are better for it. How many people have to tell you that running less then 500hp is an unneccessary risk before you will listen?

The amount of people claiming something to be the only possible truth doesn't make it any more true. Of the half dozen that have claimed >500 hp are an absolute must on a ranger only one actually made - or hinted at - an argument that had merit. The others just claim something similar to "It just is".

Wakka · Dec 18, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

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Any rune that increases an attribute ultimately is a loss of HP. The question is how to balance hp vs attributes in a way that suits your build and playing style best.

Minor Runes? lol

He's not being condecending, and even if he is, if you dont like it, dont post.

Maybe you could form a style of play out of a low HP build? Maybe? But you seem to be avoiding questions about if you have titles or play in Hard Mode? lol

Amy Awien · Dec 18, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

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Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

There isn't really a good reason not to run all Minors no matter what you're doing.

Then why not go one step further and take only Vitae's along with the superior vigor? You should gain another 20-30 HP compared to running with minor attribute runes.

Wakka · Dec 18, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

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Then why not go one step further and take only Vitae's along with the superior vigor? You should gain another 20-30 HP compared to running with minor attribute runes.

I take 5 Vitaes and a Vigor lol although I do run one major rune (Marksmanship, so I get 5 seconds from BA

) but theres really no point firing attribs into places just for that extra bit of damage lol

Amy Awien · Dec 18, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

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Originally Posted by Wakka

Minor Runes?

One could put a Vitae where you put a minor.

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He's not being condecending, and even if he is, if you dont like it, dont post.

He is the one who can not see there's a difference of opinions.

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But you seem to be avoiding questions about if you have titles or play in Hard Mode? lol

I play HM, yes, but I don't have the time or boredom to grind for titles. How could that influence the arguments? Are they any more or less valid then?
If your party gets (near) wiped you've likely made a tactical or strategical mistake and increasing HP is not going to fix that.

Wakka · Dec 18, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

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He is the one who can not see there's a difference of opinions.

You've been arguing with like 6 different people to hammer home your point? Your just as bad lol

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If your party gets (near) wiped you've likely made a tactical or strategical mistake and increasing HP is not going to fix that.

Thats not true lol in HM agro can break pretty easily from your Tank, and the rest of your team can come under great pressure. If the monks cant handle this pressure (oh I dont know, maybe due to low HP or high DP?) then something is going to die.

Amy Awien · Dec 18, 2007, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakka

I take 5 Vitaes and a Vigor lol although I do run one major rune (Marksmanship, so I get 5 seconds from BA

) but theres really no point firing attribs into places just for that extra bit of damage lol

Ultimately you balance health against effect. A major rune is -35 HP for the rune and another -10HP for not bringing a Vitae instead, you trade 45 HP for an increase in damage output.

Aris the Accurate · Dec 18, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

and by running a sup you sac 85 hp. why not run a minor and sac the least ammount of life and still be able to hit breakpoints? Apparently their was a mistake..I fell into the situation stated in ensigns sig. sorry

Wakka · Dec 18, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

I meant 5 Survivor Insignias btw. My bad.

Theres a different between saccing 35 (not sure where your getting the 45) and saccing 150hp lol I still ru nwith around 550+ depending on my armour set.

But if you do the maths...

Take the base 480hp.
Add 50hp, assuming you have Sup Vigor that gives a total of 530hp.
Assuming you run a fortitude mod on your bow, thats another 30hp giving a total of 560hp.
Add 5 Survivor Insignias which is another 40hp, a total of 600hp.
*Optional* Add a rune of Vitae for another 10hp.

So from that 600hp, to get down to 450ish you have to be carrying 2 Sup runes, which if you ask anyone who knows anything about equipment, thats overkill! I dont do it for damage, Rangers arent for damage, thier for Degen/Conditions and interupting. I balance it, but in a sensible way that isnt going to punish me in harder areas.

Fair enough if you had of said you replace Survior Insignias with something that ups your armour? And maybe run an armour mod on your bow I could understand where your coming from, but your not lol

Amy Awien · Dec 18, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

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Originally Posted by Wakka

You've been arguing with like 6 different people to hammer home your point? Your just as bad lol

Most of them haven't put forth a single valid argument, most have just said something along the lines of "you're wrong".

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... If the monks cant handle this pressure (oh I dont know, maybe due to low HP or high DP?) then something is going to die.

There is a mistake in there. For the party to survive the healers need to be able to replace the health lost and as fast as it's lost. A higher amount of initial health will not influence the balance of damage vs healing. More health only helps because it provides a bigger buffer which makes it easier for a healer to maintain.

Wakka · Dec 18, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

This is getting a bit tedious lol

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More health only helps because it provides a bigger buffer which makes it easier for a healer to maintain.

Thats not true. Having 150hp on each member in your team is an additional 1200hp between your party. And your trying to tell me that this does not effect the survival rate of your team? And its down to the healing (and prot) of your monks? Do you run with a 3 monk backline? Are you telling me the entire time you've played the game that you have never been pressured to a full wipe without making a tactical mistake?

EDIT: Quoted the wrong bit ^^